Sid: Red hot is an understatement; I had a traditional Jewish rabbi, not just any rabbi, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. He’s host of the national TV show “Shalom in the Home” on The Learning Chanel. He was named by Talker’s Magazine as one of the hundred most important radio hosts of America. I mean he has credentials like you wouldn’t believe. He’s described by many publications as arguably the most famous traditional rabbi in America; he’s been profiled in many of the world’s leading publications including Time Magazine, Newsweek, New York Times, London Times, L.A. Times, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post; he has twice weekly columns in Jerusalem Post, the New Sun. He had a debate, if I was to pick one Jewish believer in Jesus of everyone I know throughout the world it would be Dr. Michael Brown who I’ve known for many years. You see Dr. Brown has got a PhD in near eastern languages and literature from New York University. He is president and founder of Fire School of Ministry in Concord, North Carolina which is right outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. Mike you either read, write, or speak about 15 Semitic languages. How did you happen to learn so many languages?
Michael: What happened was, this is not my fault this the fault of the rabbis, you say how’s that? Well here’s the deal, I got saved in 1971 I was not literate at that point in Hebrew or Jewish sources. I was raised in a kind of a wishy-washy Conservative home on Long Island Conservative Jewish home. I had been a heavy drug user shooting heroine, using LSD, playing drums in a rock band. God radically turned me around at the age of 16 ½ in 1971. My dad was thrilled with the change in my life, but said “Okay great you’re off drugs that’s wonderful, but you need to come back to our traditions.” So he brought me to meet the local rabbi who was fresh out of Jewish Theological Seminary, a great young man; took a real interest in me. We began to have lengthy dialogs by phone, of course I wanted to win him to the Lord the same way, and he wanted to win me back to Judaism. He began to challenge me “Mike you don’t even know Hebrew. Mike how can you tell me what to believe I’ve been studying this since I was a boy.” Then he brought me to meet some ultra-Orthodox rabbis, very religious rabbis in Brooklyn a couple of years later. I had memorized thousands of verses at that point out of the King James Bible, and I was praying hours every day and I was ready for anybody. I went to me with these rabbis and they seemed like very God fearing men, much more religious than the men in the synagogue where I grew up. Boy I mean they knew the languages and they knew the background, and it seemed like everything I threw at them they seemed to have an answer for even if some of the answers were far-fetched at least they had an answer. That really provoked me, I felt “Look I know my experience in the Lord is real, I know I’ve been transformed, I know the word seems so absolutely clear to me, but…”
Sid: Yet, I have to tell you Mike, and a Jewish person, or a Gentile person that believes in Jesus; when they first hear the apologetics or the arguments that traditional rabbis have had 2000 years to develop, it’s very overwhelming if someone has not had a personal encounter with God.
Michael: It is, look the fact is you have some very sincere people who are studying the same Bible, but they’re reading it in Hebrew, and you’re average believer is not able to read it in Hebrew. They’ve had like you said 2000 years of not believing what we believe, and have a whole system of faith and practice and many of them study for hours and hours a day. At that time I didn’t realize, but some specialize in dealing with people like me. That’s only increased, there’s a great increase in what we call counter-missionary…
Sid: But just out of curiosity how old were you when you first were taken to the rabbi?
Michael: Well the local rabbi, the Conservative rabbi I was not yet 17. I was a brand new believer…
Sid: I have to be candid with you, I don’t know how you held your own. I don’t know why he didn’t overpower you because you didn’t know Hebrew. If you were like me, you were bar-mitzvah and you read beautiful Hebrew, but you didn’t understand a word of what you read.
Michael: Listen I didn’t even know what the content of the passage was. In other words, no one ever bothered to tell me that when I was bar mitzvah’d I read from 1 Kings 18 where Elijah calls down fire from heaven [Laughing], that’s quite a passage. Nobody told me that you just went through the motions, that’s not Judaism as a whole that’s the Judaism I grew up with which was very superficial. Leonard Ravenhill, an old man of God who is with the Lord now, he used to say “A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument,” this much I knew. God had radically changed my life; Jesus in a moment of time delivered me from drugs; God brought deep conviction of sin into my own life and made me to realize how far from Him I was, and how deeply He loved me. I was transformed, He changed me; He was working in my life; He had become my Father and my Best-Friend. So if someone hit me with an argument I knew there was an answer somewhere, in point and fact I spent hours alone with God. Not immediately, but after several months in the Lord I started to get hungrier and thirstier. I remember saying to myself “I could live a clean but empty life, or I could give myself to God the way I gave myself to drugs and rock music,” which meant whole heartedly. I began to pursue the Lord with all my heart, so by the time I had met the ultra-Orthodox rabbis when I was 18, I had been spending 5, 6, 7 hours with the Lord alone every day. I was reading the Bible 2 hours a day; I was memorizing scriptures 1 hour a day; I used to memorize 20 verses every day, that’s how hungry for God I was. I was experiencing the reality of God, so when I met with these men yes they challenged me, yes they raised good questions, yes their lifestyle also challenged me, not that it was different than mine in terms of devotion, but the fact that they were very serious religious Jews, and I grew up thinking all Judaism was superficial the way I knew it. So I was challenged by all that and I thought “Okay, when I start college I’m gonna start studying Hebrew.” When I started studying Hebrew I thought “You know I need to learn more languages to learn more background so I don’t even need to rely on the dictionaries, or commentaries; I want to be able to dig and understand on my own. The interesting thing is, that along the whole journey, even though I knew the reality of my faith, I was always wondering “What am I going to study, what I going to learn, what am I going to be confronted with that is going to cause me to question what I believe, what am I going to be hit that I don’t have an answer for? To my delight, and even surprise, the more I studied the stronger my faith became. I didn’t have to shut off my mind ever. To this day Sid, after 34 years in the Lord and writing 1,300 pages of apologetic material and having many debates with rabbis; to this day I can tell you, the more I study the more excited I get about the foundations of our faith.
Sid: Okay, we did two television shows with Dr. Michael Brown, and Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, that I have literally, I mean so many credentials I don’t have time to even list all of them; so we had as good a professional traditional rabbi as possible, and as good a Messianic Jewish scholar as possible debating on the subject “Who is Jesus?” Mike why is it 2000 years ago so many people missed Jesus being the Messiah? I mean here He was in the flesh performing miracles everyone in Jerusalem knew about this rabbi from Galilee that walked in signs and wonders, and people said He was the Messiah. Why did a group of Jews follow Him, and a group of Jews, a larger group, not follow Him at that time?
Michael: Well the fact is that’s the way it’s been in our history Sid. Picture this we come out of Egypt with the greatest display of national miracles, public national display in world history. God demonstrates that He alone is God; He brings us out of Egypt, He brings us through the sea; He speaks from Mt. Sinai in such a way that the whole nation can hear, and the whole nation says “Whatever He said we’re gonna do.” Within 40 days many of them, the majority are breaking the very first commandment and worshipping an idol. Out of that generation only 2 make it into the promise land, and the rest die because of unbelief and…
Sid: Yes, but most of them were not as knowledgeable as say a traditional rabbi 2000 years that from age 3 or 4 starts memorizing and studying the Jewish scriptures.
Michael: Some of those people did come to follow Yeshua, some were believers, but many times He is more than we are asking for. In other words, we want a Messiah who will come according to our plan and make the world a better place and make us all happy and take away trouble and war. On a certain level in the Messianic age we’ll experience a lot of that when it is fully realized on the earth. Jesus came and upset the religious apple cart; He is a threat to our authority systems; He is a threat to our religious tradition, and what happened was despite the tremendous sincerity of so many of these men, and rabbinic Judaism was really in its formative stages then, but despite the sincerity of so many of these men they had made the mistake of replacing the living word of God with human traditions. In their zeal to construct something in which the Jewish people could live on a national level without the presence and the prophetic word of God, they constructed an endless stream of traditions. Jesus came into conflict with those traditions, He did not come the way they were expecting Him to come, He did not come and build up their system, He came and confronted what was wrong in their system and because of that many turned against Him.
Sid: My guest LA Marzulli I’m interviewing him on his brand new book just literally off the press “On the Trail of the Nephilim. If you recall the Nephilim were the fallen angels that cohabited with the daughters of man and produced hybrid race that unfortunately were giants and evil. Some of the things that LA has uncovered are absolutely amazing to me; tell me some of your research that you found in Peru.
LA: Well, the Peru research Sid was absolutely just mind blowing. The reason why we went there was we knew that we could find evidence of what we believe of course are Nephilim skulls because there are many private museums in Peru. And we zoned in on one of them, or zeroed in on one of these museums and I’ll never forget when we walked in and there in the display case were over 40 skulls just shown. And we were able to open the display case, handle them; photograph them, test them, measure them everything that you would want to do.
Sid: Now just out of curiosity something that looks so out of this world to me really is these skulls that are elongated they’re not like human skulls.
LA: There’s a process known as cradle head boarding or cranial deformation; cranial refers to the skull, cradle head boarding means that you’re taking an infant like less than one year old, six months old infant. And I’ve actually seen one of these devices which were used; they would place one of them on the front of the baby and in the rear and they would bind the head; and so as the child grows it shapes the skull into an elongated like a cone head type shape.
Sid: Is it sort of like the Japanese would wrap the feet and so that they would have real tiny… some Japanese women would have very tiny feet. Same principal, okay go ahead.
LA: And it’s the same idea they’re manipulating bone structure. Now when we were in Peru and we saw these skulls it became very apparent which ones were cradle head-boarded, or cranial head deformation deliberately done by human being to other human beings when they were very very small. What blew us away Sid were the skulls that we have and what we saw at the Paracas museum; these were cone head shapes or elongated type skulls. Now a little bit of back story is needed here and this is what differentiates these skulls from the normal human skull. All of us on this planet basically have four plates; okay four plates which comprise the human skull. They are frontal plate, the two parietal on the top of the skull and then the one in the rear called the occipital; frontal two parietal occipital one in the rear. Many of these skulls which we saw in Peru had only one parietal plate the stitching, or they’re called sutures, which hold these plates together are very evident; you can see them with the naked eye. And on all these skulls in Peru not all the ones but the ones that we believe are possibly are the Nephilim skulls. There is only one parietal plate; there should be a suture going down from the top of the frontal plate right in front of the skull and all of the way on the top of the head which goes back to the rear of the skull; that wasn’t there. Not even a trace of it; not even the faintest trace of it.
Sid: And so what is the explanation for that?
LA: The explanation is and that’s only one feature. The bones underneath the eyes which are called the zygomatic arch were very pronounced in many of these skulls. The upper jaw which is known as the maxilla again very pronounced; the lower jaw the mandible very very robust. These skulls had many anomalies, the nasal cavity for instance was a disaster area according to several medical doctors who looked at these things. On the top of the frontal plate right in the front there was sort of like a ridge the size of your little finger going all the way around it and you can’t make that from cradle head boarding; you can’t manipulate that. And the rear of the largest skull which we of course believe were the male skulls there was this heart shaped dome on the back of the top back of the skull. Again with only one parietal plate where there should be two. So these skulls were certainly anomalous and this where the red hair came from one of these skulls which again only had one parietal.
Sid: But what does this prove?
LA: Well, it proves that there’s some sort of genetic manipulation going on that’s what it proves and because the Paracas culture springs into being between 3000 and 3500 years ago it fits the timeline of the diaspora; of the people leaving, or these Nephilim tribes, leaving the promise land in the wake of the conquest.
Sid: Okay, but how do we not know this is just not part of what evolutionists call the evolutionary cycle and it sum’s between an ape and a man?
LA: We had these skulls examined by two medical doctors who told us unequivocally that these are not the skulls of apes or any other primates that they are human skulls but they are genetic differences in them. There are differences in these skulls and we believe that these are not completely human.
Sid: Now tell me some of the other things you found in Peru.
LA: Well, one of the places we went to was a place called Huatara and this was about 7,000 feet above sea level at the foot hills of the Andes. And where we went was absolutely in the middle of nowhere a little small town. In the area there was a Catholic church which was built over a very old existing structure. And when you’re in the church it’s very very dark hard to see but we saw this very complex megalithic stone work polygonal shaped, not one stone was identical to another; and yet the joinery was so perfect you could… no mortar was construction. You couldn’t put a human hair through it and when we walked outside the church around to the rear of church or the side of the church it became very evident that there was different builders that was here. That whatever this thing was there were trapezoidal shapes, the stonework was absolutely mind boggling, mind blowing how it was shaped. These stones are some of the weigh between 4 to 10 to 15 to 20 tons each. They’re placed there in a way that you’d be hard pressed to do it today. The stones were polygonal; what I mean by that many different sided and those cuts go all the way back six feet in that wall. So if you see angles of one stone, those angles traced that whole stone from beginning to the end they make up that wall. You could create it today Sid with the tools that we have but we’re talking giant saws to cut these things without any vibration in the saw and then somehow, you know it would be very very time consuming. And yet we see this structure 1000′s of years old and it begs the question who made them? And even more mysterious “How did they do that without the tools that we have in the modern age?”
Sid: And as we discussed earlier this week some of these stones are what 40 tons; how did they move them?
LA: Well, the stones and Saksaywaman and Cusco were the largest megalithic stones that we saw and some of these were as large as 120 tons. And remember the Saksaywaman is about 12,000 feet above sea level.
Sid: This is in Peru; go ahead.
LA: Peru. The quarry is 40 to 60 miles away and remember the Inca did not use the wheel so this begs a question, first of all how do we quarry these things at 2000 feet below the 12,000 foot level 40 miles away? And how the heck do we get them there and how do we shape them into these polygonal structures. And the photographs speak louder and show a person what we’re really looking at. Again in the modern age you might be able to do this but it would be so costly; and yet these stones are shaped, they’re mortarless there are no mortar at all they are 1000′s of years old. They are very very ancient, and no one knows where they came from, no one knows the builders and the building techniques have long ago been lost.
Sid: Tell me some of the more interesting things you found in the museums in Peru.
LA: Well again there are some museums where the elongated or the cone head type skull is able to be viewed. One in particular museum was the Ica Museum. This skull that was there, which we have photographs of, was found in the Chongo Necropolis and the Chongo Necropolis is right next door to Paracas, Peru. The Paracas museum may recall is where we were able to handle the skull. This Necropolis is seven miles it goes back into the desert seven miles; it was one of the most bleak places I’ve ever been. It’s like the Sahara it’s just desert and as your walking through this area the grave robbers for the last 500 years have been digging in this area and the place is strewn, it’s all private it’s private land. It’s strewn with mummy wrappings and human remains and pottery shard as far as the eye could see. It was the most bazaar place I’ve ever been in my life! And in the Chongos, the Chongos skull was in the Ica museum it was that of a male, one parietal plate; remember that was the plate on the top of the skull.
LA: Should be intersected with a suture from the frontal to the rear plate it’s not one parietal plate. Then on top of it it has this heart shaped mound which should not be there. So again going back to the cradle deformation, or cradle head-boarding, where they bind the infants head at a very young age obviously with material and begin to shape the head this is not what we’re looking at. I believe that is genetic manipulation by an outside source; that outside source being the fallen angels. These are in my opinion Nephilim.
Sid: Now let’s go back to our institution the Smithsonian; why wouldn’t the Smithsonian have this front and center they’d have people coming from all over the world to their museum?
LA: Well, I’ll tell you something Sid it’s really interesting when we went into Lima, and I’ll answer your question with this because it ties right into it. I went to Lima first and the reason why I went to Lima is I wanted to see the golden mummies which I knew were on display. These are 9 foot mummies, okay 9 footers; guess what Sid, they’re no longer there.
LA: They’ve been taken down.
LA: To add one thing to it we went to the National Museum where they have…where they used to have an entire room of elongated cranial deformation which we believe are Nephilim skulls cone head skulls. A whole room, that section of the museum boarded up, closed down under renovation been that way for 4 to 6 months. I asked the people “Where are the skulls? Oh we have them, we’re going to show them at some point in time.” The bottom line is this… the window is closing, and window is closing because it goes against the Darwinian paradigm. Which talks about the Baringian Lambridge the Bering Strait.
Sid: As far as I’m concerned your research really throws a monkey wrench in the whole evolution concoction.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be a worker, we want everyone everywhere you have got such unique DNA there is no one that has ever been created just like you, and you have a purpose, you have a destiny. And I have found something and I am going to shout it from the roof tops it’s a new book by James Rutz it called “Mega Shift” because there is a MEGA SHIFT going on in the Body of Messiah. Part of this mega shift I’ve been talking about for 20 years and that is the law of evangelism going to the Jew first which opens up a supernatural door of evangelism to Gentiles greater than if you’d gone to the Gentile first. And celebrating the Biblical festivals because they’re not just Biblical festivals they’re not just Jewish festivals, they are God’s feasts. And in the Hebrew the word feasts means set appointments, they are appointments with God. But because many people have taken these Biblical feasts and have become legalistic or said they had something to do with your salvation people have thrown out the baby with the dirty bath water. But it’s time to take these God appointments and Tim and Katie what I see is this house church movement and the institutional church movement are not working opposite each other it’s all part of the body of Messiah. And I can see all of us coming together for a feast of Tabernacles celebration and we won’t have a football game going on during that day because we’ll rent the entire football stadium and will all come together worship God on a God festival He will show up and Jewish people that don’t know the Messiah will say “What is this, black and white, and male and female, and Jew and Gentile and African American and Hispanic, and Asian and Native American, and what is going on? And they’re dancing together and they love each other and people are getting healed and then if you’ll allow me I’d like to put this on my television show It’s Supernatural. And I’ve got Time and Katie Mather in the office right now, they’re spokesman for the Mega-shift Ministry. Can you see that? Can you see stadiums filled with God’s children and God being so pleased that He shows up.
Tim: I think that the Lord’s going to give us back this culture, I think that He’s going to give us back this culture and the impact isn’t for the culture or for the politics it’s for the Kingdom of God. And as we come together and set aside all those differences we have to set aside especially those that may be listening who are part of the people who have left structural institutional church.
Sid: Are there many like this around the United States.
Tim: The researchers Barna Research says right now it’s a little difficult to grasp, but between 20 and 30 million born again, Bible believing Christian people have left the institutional church and are not going back.
Sid: And why have most of them left, do you know I’m sure it’s diverse reasons but what would you say?
Tim: I would say that many are angry, they’re angry at being told to mobilize what we’ve been talking about, we’ve been told to mobilize and then not being allowed to mobilize not being allowed to do anything. And there’s a lot of spiritual abuse that happens in that process of restraining people while saying go out and do.
Katie: I think a lot are just hungry for more, they’ve been… a lot of them have been in the church for a long time, they’ve done everything that there is to do within the structure, but they know that there is so much more that the Lord wants to do within them that they’re capable of. Because of the mobility of our society and even being able to go around the world they know that that they can do so much more for Christ.
Sid: Katie from your eyes, I know every meeting in a house church is different. Could you paint me a picture of what might happen at one meeting in your house congregation? First of all how many people might you have there?
Katie: Well, it could be anywhere from 2 or 3, the very smallest and the Lord shows up even among 2 or 3. We suggest that don’t go any higher than 12 or 15 because then you really lose the intimacy of the small group where people are able to share with one another sharing their lives and what the Lord’s doing in their lives. Because when it gets larger than 15 it’s time to divide, where in the institution they see that division is a bad thing. Within the home church community division is a good thing that means growth, that means now one fellowship can become 2 or 3 and even grow even more.
Sid: But what goes on in the meeting itself?
Katie: In the meeting itself we see a lot of things happen, people come with whatever they have to bring. And sometimes it’s a revelation they’ve received personally from the Lord. Sometimes it’s a scripture that’s really been burning in their heart that they want to share that the Lord’s been speaking to them. Some have come with songs that they have written and they share them and others are moved. Some come with a problem and share it and others are able to pray over them. One home meeting a fellow stood up and said “I feel that there are several people here who are caring such brokenness in their spirit that it’s time now to really give that to the Lord so why don’t you just let us just pray for you.” And actually not just 1 or 2 stepped up but 4 stepped forward and said “Yeah, that’s me.” And we had opportunity to pray with them for deep healing and some long carried wounds in their life. One of those people even had a restoration in their relationship with their father and to see that kind of change and transformation really bring about something supernatural in people’s lives is a powerful thing to happen in a small group.
Sid: Tim a lot of people that are believers that have not dropped out of the system like the big churches because they can hide. Can you hide in a home church?
Tim: It’s a little difficult to hide when you’re sitting across the room from someone and they look and say “Hey what’s going on with you?” and begin conversation it’s a little difficult to hide. And so the anonymity that we like in the big group is basically lost in the living room.
Sid: Well, one of the things I said to both of you is I want you, I didn’t say this I should have, I want your number one as my guest to have fun and number two I want you to yield to the Spirit of God not to me. And the only restriction is time because that we don’t have control over. However, is that what you’d tried to do at your house meeting what I’m trying to do right now on the air?
Tim: Yeah, absolutely finding out who people are, where they are and letting them bring a piece to this puzzle that we find Jesus in them and they begin to minister to that one to another and they become… there is a rich koinonia and that’s developed. And I as a recovering pastor
Tim: I have gained rich insight and my life is much richer having these people talk to me and minister to me and care for me in the midst of it instead of me having to be the all-knowing, all seeing-eye.
Sid: So Tim what can someone do in your house church that they could not do in their traditional church be it charismatic, evangelical, what?
Tim: Imagine on a standard whatever kind of church it is a Sunday morning and the pastors saying something whatever in his message and it hits you. And it doesn’t have to hit you wrong but it hits you and you have some sort of revelation on it and what if you just stood up and said “Wait a minute I have something to say about that I’ve got an idea about that.” Just imagine how that would work in your Sunday morning service. I think you would find out what the term usher means as they usher you out of the room. (Laughing)
Sid: (Laughing) Tell me some of the other differences, for instance let’s look at it this way a pastor recognizes this problem in a traditional style church and they start house groups and these are small and so it seems to me that will accomplish the same thing and yet you say no.
Tim: The issue is back to a matter of control, and I had to learn this as a recovering pastor I had to learn how to let people do what they wanted to do, let people share out of their heart and not always tell them the right answer. Come in and be the strong arm and take control of the gathering.
Sid: But aren’t you afraid of wild fire?
Tim: Absolutely I think a little wild fire once in a while cleans the forest out. There’s all sorts of dangers that people can focus on.
Sid: You know what I like to say?
Sid: I like to say in most churches there’s no fire; oh God give me some.
Katie: Well, Tim’s always said “I’d rather be a fireman than an undertaker so.”
Tim: I’d rather be in a fire, yeah because the issue is it would be…it would be good to have a little fun have a little tension or something.
Sid: So what is your preparation for your meeting?
Tim: My preparation is life, the issue is that we don’t even use the term meeting anymore we use…
Sid: What do you use?
Tim: We just “You want to come over to our house we just invite friends.
Katie: We’re getting together.
Tim: Come on over we’re going to eat because as you start putting these tags on it then people have expectation, people have their paradigms of what it’s going to be what it needs to be and if you say this is a meeting, if you line up chairs the little things that don’t seem important. If you line up chairs; I have one friend who when he first got into the house church he built himself a pulpit that he had put up in his living room and every time they met and he spoke to them because it’s in our DNA the institution. And so we just decide whatever the institution, however the institution would do it let’s do it differently. And making room, getting out of the way, getting our agenda out of the way and letting the Holy Spirit show up and let Him do what He wants to do. Sometimes the meeting will be about one person. In the institution generally the meeting was about me and what I had to say as a pastor.
Sid: Our time is slipping away.
Sid: My guest is so red hot for the Messiah that I understand that she prays with a group of teenager’s every morning at 5:30 am. Now most singers I know Karen Wheaton don’t want to talk to anyone at 5:30 in the morning they would rather do this at night. How do you manage to pray at 5:30 am with these teenagers?
Karen: Well, it was an amazing experience when the Holy Spirit called me to work with young people and much to my surprise actually. At the end of 1998 when He called me back to my home town in Hamilton, Alabama. I had been in the ministry for over twenty years by myself and I come back to my home town of 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere and the Lord spot lights to me the youth of my city. Sitting on the hood of their cars in the wee hours of the morning purposeless and unaware of the real God. And He speaks to me Sid and He says “I want you to work with the youth of this community.” Well, I explained to God why I was not the best choice to work with young people. I was too old, not cool and way too busy in the ministry. And Sid He gave me one statement that He knew would get me, “But what you invest in the lives of other young people you would reap in your own children.” So with two teenage daughters I took Him up on that offer.
Sid: Now tell me the first, the first young people you spoke to to get involved with tell me what that was like?
Karen: It was about 7 young people in the back of a storefront church that my sister and her husband pastored. We were in the back of that building on a Wednesday night and I went to just sort of help out I didn’t really know what God had in mind I just thought I’ll help with what I can. And with 7 kids I began to teach them that #1 there’s a real God who will come if you seek Him. And #2 He has a reason for you breathing, there’s a reason that you’re on the earth. He has a purpose for your life and if you worship Him, you seek Him He will come and when He comes He will speak to your heart and you’ll understand why you’re living. That’s what they did and they sought Him and He did not disappoint them He came. And when He came those kids became addicted to His presence and Sid what you’re talking about about the 5:30 in the morning prayer meeting, that began at the end of 1998-99 when those kids came to me. High school kids at the time and said “Miss Karen we want to pray from 5:30 to 6:30 in the morning before school starts would you come with us.” So sometimes in the dark the sun had not even come up yet I would pull up in that parking lot and I would sometimes I’d be coming up from a road trip tired and 5:30 I would pull up and you got a whole group now 7 kids turns to 30 kids. They’re sitting on the sidewalk waiting for me to open the door. There were times we prayed in those early mornings His presence so thick it was indescribable, those kids prayed for God to send young people to Hamilton from the North, the South, the East and the West and Sid 30 kids has turned to 100′s of 1000′s of kids that have come now from around the world just like they asked God for.
Sid: I want them to hear one of the songs from the CD’s we’re featuring a song that I love the title “Lord You’re Holy.” What does that song mean to you?
Karen: I love to worship Him because I love to see Him and whenever we worship Him we see who He is. Years ago as a young girl I said to the Lord, “Lord what is it about praise that it’s so important that You command that we praise You?” As a young girl I said “Lord, does praise have an effect on You? Does praise change You somehow? Do You need to hear us praise You and worship You?” I said “I’ll do it because You command it but why, why do You want us to praise You is it to change on You?” And God spoke to me and He said “Karen nothing changes me, I’m the same yesterday, today, and forever, but praise changes you.” When we worship Him we see Him and when we see Him we are changed forever.
Sid: Let’s worship with Karen Wheaton “Lord You’re Holy.” Something happened to Karen when she was just devastated by the things of life and the compassion of the Messiah is literally poured out when she worships but I have to tell you something else. When I listen to her worship many of her songs it makes me happy, it just gives me joy, it’s so infectious.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to just do two simple things; hear God’s voice for yourself and be obedient. But there’s so many voices out there; there’s a voice of reason; there’s a voice of logic; there’s a voice of people prophesying to you; there’s a voice of there’s a need so let’s just fulfill that need. What about my sheep hear my voice? I don’t want to settle for anything short of that. And in 2005 Dr. Gary Whetstone had an open vision in Israel; and he saw history. And he saw people marching throughout all of history and accomplishing their lifetime. And some built cities, some built major, major ministries and he saw the fire burning them up and I don’t want to be like that and he doesn’t want be like that. In this open vision Gary you saw yourself and what did God tell you?
Gary: Awe Sid, the real of that vision was I had just finished watching people that I knew being affected by other voices and then going forward and I saw God revealing some were going to fall and everything they built on the earth destroyed. And I’m watching this with a terror of reality and seeing that which leaders are losing and the fire that will consume what they built. And then the next thing I’m watching this with aghast because I know these men; I watch my life. And I’m in this open vision; I standing looking at the eastern wall of the Old City, but I am in a revelation of God completely encapsulating my life. I’m watching now my life when God spoke to me to stand for my marriage and God restored my marriage after divorce. I watched God say when I gave up industrial engineering it went on the back on the assembly process at a corporation and speaking to me “No me, hear me; do what I say.” And that’s all I gave myself to and watch God speak to me; I began businesses out of that obedience and they raised up to tremendous growth. And then God spoke to me to sell them, walk out; I watched God speaking to me and me obeying Him and going on the mission field in Indonesia a major Muslim country and obeying what God spoke. And I’m watching God speak and speak and speak and speak and speak. Then I watched my life listening to other people for the purpose of success; plans that were implemented; ways that were brought in; things that I had adopted in ministry; activities that I brought into the church; into our world mission organization; into the Bible Colleges that we opened up around the world. Things we did and I heard God say to me it was like all of a sudden I’m standing before the Voice of God and He says to me; “If you do not hear My Voice, I will take the candlestick out of its place and that will blow out its light.”
Sid: Now, what does that mean?
Gary: That means the church, that means everything that God has given to me to build and establish in His Name on this earth He has no problem removing everything that I’ve given my life to serve Him to see remove it from its place on the earth and take out even that which I call “The Life of God” because it wasn’t Him. The fear of God shock me to the core of my being. I realized yes I do hear the Voice of God, yes I have heard the voice of God; but I can’t but hear continuously the voice of God today while it is called today. And every day we live is today, I can’t rest on I heard God five years ago, I can’t rest on I heard God last Sunday, I must know I’m hearing God now. If God is offering His life in me; if His life is not mine but His life in me. The church is not mine, it’s His church; if the life of the church is not what I say it’s what He says, it’s who He is. I mean the whole of my life just was clear and I mean Sid I was broken. I was so broken by this reality that every department I went through and shut down every department; I sold everything that was involved with it; I had nothing to do with God’s plan. I mean we just went like a radical severance of everything I could identify…
Sid: Just out of curiosity your wife is co-Pastor with you did she go along with all of this?
Gary: You know Faye has found one thing to be true in God with me and that is if God has spoken it there is nothing going to stop the God who’s spoken it. That’s where we were. She had absolute harmony total agreement and complete commitment to everything God was speaking because she knows this life is not made up of what we accomplish. It’s not made up of what I believe God for, it’s made up of the nature of Christ in me and what He says to do through me; nothing else matters.
Sid: Alright without revealing names you saw people that you recognized that had great ministries and you saw some of them burning up with fire. Could I ask you because you did this off the air and I didn’t ask you if you’d do it on the air without revealing who could you tell me someone who you actually saw in the vision and you went to and you told them what you saw and how they reacted?
Gary: I went to this one ministry and I would say without a question everyone that’s in your program knows this person. I said to them this is what I experienced in God and I watched your life and what God showed me is that you walk in the anointing and power of His grace to accomplish these specific things. But these areas I want to ask you did God say this to you? And his response to me was this, “Gary, if I could do it all over again I would never have my finances come in the way they come in.” I said “Wait a minute you can change this.” He said, “It’s too late in my life the engine is too big that I have created and the way that it is funded is just going to have to continue because I have trained people to give this way.”
Sid: But what good is it if it’s going to burn with fire, so what?
Gary: Beautification that was what I shared.
Sid: You just closed… if God were to tell me today that what he’s built through me was going to burn in fire before the day over I’d start closing it down.
Gary: That was my concern; but the real is the anointing is so powerful in this man’s life. The miracles, the demonstration of God is evident but the financial means where with things are done is not authored by God.
Sid: I’ll tell you what I’m not a prophet but I’m going to prophesy in my opinion with what’s going on in the world the ones that are going to burn with fire are probably going to go under for financial reasons even before they burn with fire; that aren’t called by God.
Gary: I mean it’s happening the destruction, the manipulation; all the things that have occurred in Christendom to allure people with deceptive practices with just error like “You give $100 you get $1,000 back. You give a $1,000 this is a prophecy of God to bring deliverance in your life. The means of merchandising and the deception that it is there and the heinous acts of the enemy that men and women are espousing as God. And the leadership that is affecting people is a deceptive lie; that is what is going forward and completely being consumed. It wasn’t their works consumed it was everyone that was involved in the work was consumed. It’s everything they did was consumed.
Sid: Okay, let me take you down to a Christian housewife that’s listening to us today. Her children are a mess, her marriage is a mess, how would this help her?
Gary: Sid, God is the answer He said to the believing spouse “You’re unbelieving spouse is sanctified; otherwise your children would be unclean.” One believer is sufficient for a supernatural visitation of God’s power to deliver the whole house. That means the curse that is on the children where they’ve been given away for another for destruction God has supernaturally empowered that one individual with the nature of Christ and the hearing ear of the voice of God and they will do what God’s doing and they will deliver that house.
Sid: And what about the person that has just lost their job, and they don’t know what they’re going to do and jobs are not easy to come by; how would hearing God’s voice make a difference to them?
Gary: Awe Sid the people that are in derision and mental duress under the sense of loss, loss of a house, loss of a job, loss of their cars, repossession; all the things that have such a voice that tries to bring identity and significance and value and esteem and prestige and stability in life are nothing in God. God is capable to take a prophet when the brook dries up, when the food of the raven stops coming to feed him and send him to a widow who is poorer than him and bring the miracle of provision. God’s voice if he followed the voice of man he would never found the provision of God. But because he followed the voice of God he found all provision and the barrel of meal didn’t waste and the cruse of oil did not fail. That’s the voice of God to everyone today listening; that is hearing distress, destruction, loss, lack. God is speaking “I have the way out;” He’s speaking to you right now. Today Hear His Voice is a course that will move you to hear clearly and take action. I know what God’s doing; it’s a set up Sid.
Sid: I believe that, I believe that everyone that is listening to us right now if they’re a true believer they’re saying “I’ve got to hear God’s voice; I have to find out… I mean this is out of my control.” And you are a blessed person when it’s out of your control; that means you’re ready to hear God’s voice.
Sid: Getting ready for a visitation from Heaven, that’s what my guest says his name is Shawn Bolz. I just got a hold, supernaturally I believe, of his brand new book just off the press it’s called “Keys to Heaven’s Economy, an Angelic Visitation from the Minister of Finance.” And in your book you say that this is God’s moment for many people to have open Heavens explain.
Shawn: Well, I believe that God wants to put the motivation and motivator back into Christianity being with Jesus where He is that that’s our primary goal is to be with Jesus for all eternity for where He is. And I think He wants to provoke us to that by revealing what Heaven’s like now. And He wants to provoke the world to see how good He is by showing them a glimpse of Heaven. in Heaven there’s no lack, there’s no divorce there is no need for healing there is no depression. He wants to bring environments on the earth that look like Heaven and feel like Heaven as a foretaste of what we’re going to experience.
Sid: And you know many people they hear that description of Heaven and they say “Ah, I don’t want to be here.” But what you’re saying is we’re here for a purpose to bring a little Heaven on earth, is that what you’re saying?
Sid: Okay we want… there’s so many areas you deal with in your book we can just touch on some of them. One that I was especially integrated in has to do with money because to be candid with you I see so much on quote Christian television about how we can get money, or how we can get things and how easy it is and it’s sort of taken a shift away from the Biblical concepts to greed. Explain your take in your book because I love what you said.
Shawn: Well, my whole perspective is that God is releasing resource so that we can be extravagant source of blessing to His purpose and to the people on the earth. And the whole concept is that we’re going to be a people who understands that everything that we have is ours, the 10% model is a training model for people, but everything that we have is God’s, none of it is ours all that is His. And so He may require anything that I have in my possession or that I have in my life for His glory. And that there’s a generous heart in God towards us to steward with Him and that He enjoyed creating the world, He enjoyed stewarding his resources; He enjoyed stewardship of you know putting the plants where He put them and putting the water where He put it. And we’re supposed to enjoy stewarding our resources as well. Sometimes the way that it’s set up in the church is that there is a self-motivation with the money. But the only way that He can entrust us with great resources that actually brings Kingdom fruit is that there would be an unselfish motive in it.
Sid: Well, how does someone know what their motive is selfish or unselfish?
Shawn: I think part of it is how much fruit are you bearing with your resource I think that so many people are really good at giving to organizations which is a blessing and their good at helping to support people’s visions and they are good at giving their 10% and maybe a few gifts to the poor. But there is another aspect of it where money creates position, money creates authority and money creates…
Sid: A platform.
Shawn: And God is about to show people how to use their finances to create position platform ministry functions for all kinds of different spheres of influence and it’s not just give your money to the church which are two very important issues but it’s also give your money away that would create a platform for Jesus to stand upon. Maybe you’re standing there for Him as face and voice to be able to speak into the issues that are unresolved in our culture and our society. But also other cultures and societies; I believe this message translates to the poorest parts of Ethiopia, I believe that God wants to bring a resource and wants to show people and train people in Kingdom values with whatever they’re stewarding whether it’s a little of a lot. And that there would be an extravagant heart that you can’t out give Him when your serving His purpose He will always bring a source of provision that will continue. Even in the day of tribulation, so to speak, that the Christians are made for tribulations days; Christians are made for the day of adversity to succeed and thrive, if we’re serving His purpose.
Sid: Where does humility fit into this?
Shawn: I think there is a place that when you know that everything that you have is His and you understand that He is going to require some of the greatest resources you have. That He’s is going to say “Sew, sew these ones into this.” There is a place that it doesn’t matter if your rich or your poor or if you’re in need or your in plenty, that there is a place where Paul said “Where he counts it all loss anyways” and that just to know Jesus He just wants to know and fellowship with Jesus and His nature.
Sid: But it’s more difficult for someone that has a great deal of money then for someone that can’t put two nickels together.
Shawn: I agree that God has been training a number of people, and when I say number I think that it’s thousands and thousands of people in rich countries. I think that He’s been training them to understand the selfishness in the inherent societies. I think that it doesn’t…
Sid: Especially this country the United States of America.
Shawn: And I think that when you understand the selfishness and it doesn’t make you want to become poor it makes you want to actually thrive more so that you can begin to change the face of what’s going on. Like you have Bono who’s a singer in a group U-2, and he’s taken his place that he’s learned from the selfish world and he’s looking at world hunger. He’s saying “Our generation can cure world hunger if we just get the right education; it’s not just about finances it’s not starting a campaign about finances it’s starting a campaign about education understanding.” So he’s using his voice, his name and his fame to cure world hunger right now and that’s his whole goal, his whole life mission is to work with humanitarian efforts. I believe that many people are starting to see they’re being influenced by something that’s in our generation of the selfishness, the greed, all of those things. They’re saying “We want to do something, it’s not that we want to decrease in what we do we want to do what we do well, but we want to do it for the purpose to influence the difference the change, be agents of change for this.”
Sid: And we’re finding that this generation of young people it’s different than the previous generation; this is the heart of young people right now.
Shawn: Absolutely I think that there’s something inherent that’s saying we hate injustice. When you deal with injustice you deal with the poor, you deal with the sick, you deal with the brokenness in our society of marriage. You deal with the brokenness of what is a man, what is a woman and I think our society is calling out, crying out we need justice.
Sid: And not just our society that must be the heart of God right now.
Sid: How does God have so much love and patience with all the sins we have in America?
Shawn: (Laughing) I can’t answer that question.
Sid: But I’m glad that He does. Now in your chapter and we touched on it a little bit Chapter 10 called “Extravagant giving.” You were at a conference in Canada when the Minister of Finance came to visit you. Tell us some of the things he revealed to you, especially here’s a quote “The Holy Spirit is going to lead the church to give in ways that are impossible according to human nature.” What do you mean?
Shawn: Well, I think it goes back to Macedonia example that I quoted earlier in there where the Macedonians gave to Paul and he explained about their generosity they gave beyond their means of giving because they understood that God would provide for them. I think that there is going to be people who the normal human nature is not equipped to give in a sacrificial way where it actually costs and could potentially be there downfall, could potentially ruin their lives. I’m not talking about giving to big offerings that would just support one ministry; not that that’s a bad thing. I’m talking about a gift that gets so motivated by the love of God not just emotions or impulse that says “I must make the sacrifice because it’s demanding everybody because he wants to trust me with his nature and His nature is so against my nature that sometimes He requires us to choose His nature above anything else. And I believe that there’s something that’s foreign to the western world we give in a humanistic way, and He’s teaching us how to give in a Kingdom mindset that our source of God or our resources belong to Heaven first therefore our lack is His lack and our gain is His gain. It delivers us from a fear that’s resource based into a place where it’s relationship based. So people are going to give based on their relationship they have with Heaven not based on the resources that they have available to them.
Sid: And I have to, help me out here, but I have to believe that our motivation to give is to get there’s something wrong in this picture. Shouldn’t the motivation be “God I love You there’s nothing more important than to give into your kingdom!”
Shawn: Absolutely, I think that there’s a good part of the American dream I’ll use America as an example which is you can have big dreams here and succeed in a great way and that’s a beautiful part of America, but the bad part of America is that American dream has become a place of having you know resources that’s selfish in motive in having 2.5 kids and 2 cars and the big house, and maybe another house just as a vacation place. And it all centers around our own selfish motives to gain something to have security in our possessions and we obvious know from all the world disasters that have happened there’s no sure security in our own possessions. And so there’s a place where God is putting inside a generation of people the desire to change and have an identity in Heaven and in Heaven’s economy not in earth’s economy.
Sid: And that I think is an important point you just made we have to have a shift from looking at the earth’s economy to Heaven’s economy.
Sid: To looking at it from God’s perspective and not our humanistic perspective what about what were you shown about supernatural favor?
Shawn: Well I believe that’s been one of my… the last couple of years I have been spending time on it, and I know I wrote a little in the book. I believe that as we give first of all to the poor Isaiah 58 is real clear as we give to the poor His light shines upon us in an increased way. So I believe that accelerates our on calling our own destiny what we’ve been given from God to partner with Jesus I believe that as we give to the poor that it accelerates us because it’s selfless and there’s no glory in it, it only brings God glory.
Sid: And you also mentioned the second area was Israel.
Shawn: Israel as we give as the church understands the call of God on His redemptive people of Israel and the begin to sow into the Kingdom efforts of what’s God’s doing there I believe the day of the Lord accelerates. And I believe that that’s also clear through scripture that the Kingdom world starts to understand God’s promise and Covenants over Israel and begins to not just add finances but actually resources with man-hours resources with understanding and education and giving themselves as a sacrifice is the way to Israel that it accelerates the day of Jesus coming forth.
Sid: I got reacquainted with someone I knew a number of years ago Renny McLean. Just at the right time I believe it was a moment that God had ordained because I have in my hands his new book “Eternity Invading Time.” And if you really want to understand from Heaven’s perspective how to operate in Bible faith not rules and regulations but an understanding of this realm that God is in called eternity. Renny you’ve had heavenly visitations and I have to believe a lot of this is written in your book from a heavenly viewpoint.
Renny: Oh oh, totally totally is I mean you know when you have an encounter with the Lord your whole view of God changes you know. Anybody who’s had an encounter with God I can tell you you’re not judgmental. Because when you had an encounter with the Lord what you seen in His eyes is compassion. I mean He looks at you and knows everything about you and he’s not condemning you.
Sid: You know I’ve shared some personal things with Renny and actually I did it on the air this week but they’re personal prayers that I pray almost if not every single day of my life. And one is to walk in the compassion of the Messiah; I believe as you believe Renny before the Messiah returns there will be men and woman raised up that will walk in that type of compassion.
Renny: Oh, I believe that because the manifestation to the power of God’s glory is really and truly revealed through the love of God. And you know when it comes to the place where He’s loved becomes us you know my goodness nothing is impossible we’re walking in the realm with no limits.
Sid: Now when you say “Nothing is impossible” it’s one thing to someone for someone to parrot that expression but it’s another when what I see on what goes on in your various meetings even at a young age you saw dead people come to life. You’ve seen a number of dead people come to life, but tell me just kind of whet the appetite of some creative miracles. For instance, I read here in a meeting you had in Dallas there was a lady in a wheelchair who had a 5 inch pin in her leg.
Sid: And she had a great miracle; tell me about that.
Renny: Oh, what happened was we had been in the meetings for 3 nights while we were in 3 nights of meetings I clearly remember that was the night where wheelchairs were emptied. You know people were walking and deaf people were hearing; blind people and cancer were being healed. So faith was already high and you know when it’s already high I mean people can believe anything. And it was the night where people could literally believe anything; I just looked at this dear sister who had been coming to the meeting every night and she had a foot brace on and I said “Take it off.” And you know she obeyed me; she obeyed the Word of the Lord and she took it off and I clearly remember when she took it off she walked. We didn’t realize though the magnitude of the miracle we were just attracted because she could walk again and she was totally healed. Well the following week when she went to the doctor and came back to the church testify she said “Well I had one of the most interesting testimonies you’ve ever heard.” And she said “The doctors cannot find the pin that was in my leg;” it was 5 inches of tin or steel, or whatever they call it. When she went into the hospital and they had it examined all they saw was five inches of brand new bone.
Sid: And that should not be so strange when I read the Bible especially in light of the book that you’ve just written “Eternity Invading Time.” As you state in your book “Eternity God’s realm is drawing closer to our realm called time.”
Sid: I have to ask you a question through Renny “How do you personally view God, How should we view God?”
Renny: Okay I’ll tell you I love that question you asked me because this is where I think the church has to redefine what it talks about. Number 1 there’s a word I want to introduce to our believers and the it’s the word to conceptualize and it means nothing more than to teach us something in its original form. Now if we see God in natural terms God is out of context; if you see God in the supernatural than God is in context. The problem is we’re trying to make somebody supernatural; we’re trying to make Him natural and He’s not natural. And unfortunately in the west we really have done that down to a science. Isn’t it funny God probably saying “Don’t you find it funny the very definition of the word God means a supernatural being we want supernatural ability and He demands to be worshiped.”
Sid: And you know what in our Spirit filled charismatic churches…
Renny: Oh my goodness.
Sid: We’re not seeing the supernatural we’re hearing the talk about it.
Sid: But we’re not seeing the goods and people they go there long enough they learn literally unintentionally we’ve been discipled in unbelief.
Renny: Oh, you are preaching, you are preaching to the choir because I’m telling you Brother Sid I believe today I honestly believe today that when most of us preachers preach from the pulpit we honestly are ministering to educated unbelief. Because it’s unfortunate to say this but it the naked truth. If the truth be told this is what we’re dealing with; we have educated the unbelief of the believer to the degree that the unbelief of the unbeliever is now stronger than the actual faith in God. And so we have relegated God to a natural form to something that He isn’t; so God really and truly is out of context. That’s why it takes a revelation for you to operate in the miraculous; you can’t operate in the miraculous with common sense. See I’ve often said this Bother Sid see unbelief is the product of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; your unbelief reveals what tree you’re eating from because when you’re eating from the tree of life you’ve got nothing but faith; nothing but faith. And you got more sense to believe God than you have to doubt God. And you see I often say this “When reason is absent faith is present; when reason is absent God is now.” And even as I say now right now when reason, oh my God I just feel His… when I say reason is absent faith is present that means the miraculous is possible here and now. Everybody listening to this broadcast or this radio interview; everybody right now I’m saying to you right now “All things are possible to you right now as you stop trying to reason how God’s going to do a thing if you just let Him do it.” Oh my goodness gracious me you’ll find He’ll do it in more ways than one. I’m telling you the miraculous power of God is present right about now; because when you’re heads out of the way God will start to move. The most brilliant mind of our time was a man call Einstein. It was said that he used 12% of his brain 12%. And they say that we today use 8%, don’t you find it strange brother Sid that all of modern discovery that we know of today; the greatest inventions that have come about in the last 100 years. And don’t you find it strange that it’s come about with 8% knowledge. Can you imagine if we have 8% use of our minds today can you then imagine what Adam had before he sinned? We are practically retarded in comparison to what Adam was; so today Adam’s legacy to us today is unbelief, fear and doubt. But Jesus Christ Yeshua died on the cross and really and truly opened back that realm to us; the realm where there is no time.
Sid: You know one of the hottest things in secular radio are talk shows. Can you imagine if a man or a woman of God moves in this realm proclaiming the true gospel no mixture but the true gospel it’ll be the hottest talk show in America; in the world.
Renny: Oh, I believe it, I believe it but you see Sid it’s what you said to me earlier we have a seeker friendly church. And what’s happened today is this if you look on television today and you listen to a lot of radio broadcast right now do you not notice how the world wants the supernatural that’s why the psychic phenomena in America is so big. The reason why it’s so big is because the church rejected the ministry of the prophet and that’s why the counterfeit took off so big and made a huge killing off of it. So if the false prophet can generate that kind of income and keep his kingdom going my goodness what would the ministry of the prophet do in the church today?
Sid: Answer this question, why is it that the biggest Spirit Filled churches in the land most of the pastors have tight control and do not want change?
Renny: The reason being because I would say their scared of God showing up; because we don’t have a problem that we’re defining God in what God means we have a problem when He shows up. Because when God shows up He shows out; and I’m telling you that when God shows up He exposes everything. So the secret of it is that we got to just let go and let God. And that’s such an easy catch phrase to use. That is so real to let go and let God because until we let go; until we let go God doesn’t manifest Himself. And if the truth be told we really and truly is I’d say you know it’s a hard statement to say like this but I just got to say the truth. It really boils down to a control issue; that’s really what… you know Sid that’s really what it boils down to. It boils down to a control issue so the question is “Is Jesus Lord of the Church or is the Pastor?” That’s really what it boils down to.
Sid: You know that your speaking truth right now Renny but the presence of God is so strong now right I believe that and we’re just about out of time, but I believe anything could happen. I see ears popping; if your ears are popping and you hear better guess what’s just happened, you’ve just been healed. But you know on tomorrow’s broadcast by faith we’re going to get Marina on that’s Renny’s wife and her ministry is worship. And Renny what happens when someone is truly worshiping God?
Renny: Oh, when somebody’s truly worshiping God you become in harmony with God and when you become one with God through your worship cancer dissolves.
Sid: Okay mishpochah consider yourself challenged. I want you to understand this thing called life in this temporary period called time from eternity’s viewpoint God’s realm. Don’t miss the next move of God’s Spirit there is such truth in this book that so few Christians understand.
Sid: We want everyone everywhere to be free; you say you are free. I’m talking about a freedom of walking with the Spirit of God; basking in the Glory of God; walking in the miraculous; seeing people all around you hunger and thirst for righteousness. The only righteousness is the King of Jews, Yeshua, Jesus the Messiah. My guest walks in that realm; his name is David Herzog. Now David you’re not supposed to be walking in this realm right now because it’s the Gentile believer that has to provoke us to Jewish people to jealousy. But according to the Bible in the last days just before the great and awesome Day of the return of the Lord God says “He will pour out His Spirit on all flesh;” But then He specifically says “Your sons, your daughters, your old men, your young men, dreams, visions, signs, wonders.” And the “your” is the physical Jew; so I guess it’s okay for you as a Jewish believer in Jesus to provoke us to jealousy. Now I really don’t want to have some weight loss company’s go out of business, but is it true that you had some meetings in Las Vegas and people had instant weight loss?
David: Yeah, we’ve seen them all over the world but in Las Vegas the first night 20 people had up to 5 dress sizes of weight loss and we have pictures of it on our website and they show, their pulling out their pants are falling down, they’re trying to hold them up and they’re skirts. It’s just amazing how God’s doing that right now in America.
Sid: What’s the most amount that someone has lost in a meeting, I mean instantly?
David: Oh yeah either it’s right away you see the dress sizes where they can’t literally hold t their pants up; their walking out with their pants as if there just regular baggy pants that their grandfather had or something. Or we’ve seen where they actually weight themselves; I think in Memphis or Jackson, Tennessee last year and a half ago the man he lost 70 pounds instantly within a few seconds of just the word coming out “Someone’s losing weight.” And whack; that’s the few times that we actually had them weight it, it’s probably even more than that’s the time that we know for sure it was confirmed 70 pounds amazing.
Sid: And there are people that have lost up to 5 dress sizes?
David: Yeah, 5 or 6.
Sid: They have to get whole new wardrobes so don’t you feel guilty?
David: Exactly, yeah.
David: It’s very very it’s just in a split second; later I’ll explain to you how and why it happens in the glory realm but yeah it happens and I think America needs it right now.
Sid: Now just very briefly you’ve been to Israel and had meetings what happened?
David: We had it during one of the feasts, we recently had it during the Feast of Sukkot, the Feast of Tabernacles, in Jerusalem and we had another one in the desert during Passover. And so they put a big big tent and people came from all over the country from Haifa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem and it was a great place and all kinds of miracles. Again instant weight loss happened a lady lost I think it was 4 or 5 dress sizes; tumors disappeared; deaf ears opened up; just every kind of thing. And right away when they saw that with the presence of God that was there I mean instantly they said “Well, we want to know the Messiah, we want to know Yeshua haMashiach if this is what He does and this is who He is we want to know Him personally.
Sid: Now I’m hearing reports of Jewish people throughout the world and Arabs for that matter that are having visitations of the Lord; did that happen at these meetings?
David: Yeah, in one meeting I explained to them about the 3rd Heaven and how that realm operates and how people can see 3rd Heaven like Paul talks about in the Old Testament, Genesis how Jacob’s ladder opened up. And we had a session on that and taught on it and literally it happened right there in the meetings people said “They were taken to Heaven, or some were transported or some were transported or dreams or visions.” It’s all the similar realm dreams, visions, trances, transportations, 3rd Heaven experiences, angelic visitations.
Sid: Now you sound like this is almost normal for you; do things like this happen at every meeting of yours?
David: No, every meeting is totally different it just depends on what God wants to do or where the people are that. It’s not from a man; it’s not my anointing necessarily it’s just opening ourselves up to what God wants to do. It’s every meetings different you know; some will be this kind of transportation and people will be seeing the Heavens and others will be more evangelistic and miracles and others will be more prophetic it’s just God is so multifaceted it just depends on what He wants to do.
Sid: David I want you to do what God has called you to do right now; I want you to talk to us about the Glory of God, and I want to give instructions to our listeners right now. I want you to soak in everything that David is saying and expect not just a lecture but a tangible presence of God’s Glory. And when God’s Glory appears all things are possible; David.
David: Yes, well the Bible says “Lord You will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.” If you were to walk in Heaven right now and you had a big cancer coming out of your stomach and you walk into Heaven how long will that cancer take to dissolve? It will probably take like not even a second.
Sid: Well, there’s no cancer in Heaven.
David: Exactly, so what makes it on earth as it is in Heaven. In Heaven there’s the Glory of God; if you had sickness; if you had even financial debt anything that’s not of God when you got to Heaven it’d be gone because of the Glory. Well, if that same Glory comes down on the Earth in a meeting then the same things would happen on Earth as it would be in Heaven. How would it be in Heaven? It would be instantly the cancer would be gone, people are not unsaved in Heaven so they get saved; so I notice when that Glory comes down in a meeting not just an anointing but the Glory at that moment God will have me just give some words and instruct people and instantly that’s how the weight loss would happen. If you went to Heaven 300 pounds, by the time you got there you weighted your normal size that you should be weighting. So that’s how that Glory realm it’s an acceleration; even people with debts. I’ve seen people with huge huge financial debts in the meetings and they’ll give in the meetings while the Glory is operating and they’ll see incredible incredible debt cancellation within minutes, within hours that they didn’t see in a normal church service giving an offering. So everything in that Glory realm is an acceleration “Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.” And so bring in that Glory down to Earth from Heaven and there’s different ways that happens. You know there’s different keys to that we might share about that tomorrow but you know praise and worship; and fasting and prayer and holiness and giving unto the Lord and there’s different things.
Sid: Now I’ve found something interesting you talked about when people give if they give into evangelist groups moving in the glory, plus Jewish evangelism; explain that you have that in your book.
David: Yeah, Acts Chapter 4 most of us or Acts Chapter 2 maybe we pray for the sick and we go witnessing once and while and some people are added to the church but in Acts Chapter 4 says “A new Glory came and the place was shaken and different things happened. They prayed for signs and wonders, not just healing and God’s hand touched people not just their hands.” And it says “Those who were in lack, anyone who was poor among them were no longer poor or lacking.” And so I believe in that moment what happened they bumped into a new level a higher level of Glory and in Heaven there is no debts. So we’ve seen in our meetings literally money appearing right in people’s pockets and bank accounts; after the meeting they go to the bank and there’s $4,000 that wasn’t there the day before; the bank doesn’t know where it came from. So these are like supernatural miracles even in the financial realm that we see while the Glory is there. People would take a step of faith and they’ll usually give something that’s a sacrifice or something. But the miracle is different than they’re used to; its supernatural it’s very fast and I can’t explain it’ it’s like a Glory zone when that high level Glory zone. When that high level Glory is there the miracles are faster; the financial miracles are faster; the salivations are quicker, the deliverances are quicker; everything’s accelerated as if we’d been in Heaven it would take long for those things to happen once you got to Heaven.
Sid: Now I’ve asked you this question before, but I love your answer and want you to answer it again. Explain the difference between ministering under the anointing as opposed to the Glory.
David: Yeah, you minister under the anointing let’s say for instance that you’re casting out demons or intercession or praying for the sick a lot of times you feel tired after that time as if strength came out of you. So it’s partly you and the anointing in you that together God’s using in you. When the Glory comes it’s like the priests they could not minister in the Temple at all when the Glory comes it’s pretty much just all God. The Glory comes down and He’ll just give you a word to start of He’ll probably say “Someone’s getting healed of this or there’s gold teeth fillings occurring or whatever.” And then if you’re just staying there on the stage and it’s happening to 100′s of people you’re not tired your ministering directly from the Glory from Heaven not just from the anointing on your life there’s a big difference there.
Sid: Now I have a friend that talks about he has a special feeling in his body maybe one particular finger or something and He knows what God is doing. Now I’m going to kind of take a leap right now for some reason my fourth finger is just vibrating right now; David any idea what that means.
David: Hmm, well God’s presence is here so when God’s presence is here things happen. If you put your finger in an electrical socket you get electrocuted. So it’s just a sign that there’s a greater Glory or power now that’s present from Heaven so many times our flesh will begin to manifest in a certain way when that anointing and that Glory starts to come.
Sid: I don’t see any difference between you praying in a meeting in person and praying over the radio right now as far as results; do you?
David: No, there’s no distance in the Glory.
Sid: And I am hearing hair; but David I’ve never prayed for someone that has had hair come back. Would you pray for that person right now?
David: Sure, let’s pray right now. If you want while you’re listening you can even if you want lay hands on your head, you don’t have to but you can.
Sid: Well, I’d like my hair to be thicker could I do that?
Sid: With this finger that is vibrating all over the place?
Sid: Well, okay. Oh, and in our studio right now in the control room there’s some people that they want to lose weight but no. I’m serious right now I heard this from God; David would you pray.
David: Yeah, pray for heads to get hair okay. Well, we just pray for those right now that have problem with balding and hair loss. We thank You Father God Lord we ask You to stretch out Your Hands now and heal; we declare creative miracles because You’re the creator and declare hair being recreated on the top of their heads on the Yeshua’s might Name. We declare hair to start growing back on people’s heads, hair to thicken also where they are thinning and bald spots to be filled. In Yeshua’s Name I declare that even right now roots of people’s hair turning back to the original hair color that where they’ve turned gray or different colors we command it to come back to the original hair color; the roots even right now. And You renew their youth as the eagles in Yeshua’s Name in Jesus Mighty Name. Amen.
Sid: Amen means so be it.
David: So be it.
SID: Hello. Sid Roth here. Welcome to my world where it’s naturally supernatural. I just so love breathing in the rarified air of Heaven. My guest did it better than most people. You see, he was caught up out of his body unexpectedly to Heaven and he was granted the privilege to see the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaking to the Messiah of Israel about the End Times, and you must, I say you must hear what he came back to report. So let me ask you this question. My guest Carlos is a, he was at Benny Hinn’s church. You were picked out by him. Tell me real briefly, what happened. You just show up and what happened?
CARLOS: First time I attended church there, the ushers, for whatever reason, sit me at the third row, aisle seat, dead center from the platform where he’s preaching. And in the middle of his preaching, he stops, points his finger at me, he says, “I don’t know who you are, young man, but the call of God is all over your life. The anointing is upon you and from this day forward, usher, when this young man comes into this church building, I want you to make sure he gets a seat up front.” That was my introduction to Benny Hinn and to his church.
SID: And then he starts working on the team, and then he starts his own congregation, and then it’s hugely successful, and then everything that’s supposed to happen is happening, and he feels that he’s arrived. And then he goes to a meeting and a prophet says, “Who here does this city mean anything to?” And he knows it’s him. He stands up. And what does this prophet Kim Clement say to you?
CARLOS: Well the prophet said that there’s somebody here connected to Indiana. And so he goes through a process of elimination. Twelve people raise their hands and he goes, “No, it’s not you, not you, not you.” When finally I was forced to lift up my hand because he goes, “It’s somebody on the right side of the platform.” So I raise my hand and the moment I did, he goes, “It’s you.” And he says, “I want you to take four large steps towards this podium, this platform.” And so I did, and as I did he was counting them: 1, 2, 3, 4. Finally when it gets to 4 he says, “Stop.” And he goes, “Thus saith the Lord. You’ve taken four major steps in ministry, related to ministry. But the fifth step, the next step will be the biggest step ever you’ve ever taken. It will take you to places you’ve dreamed about. It will take you to places of a greater glory, greater manifestation.” And so of course, I interpret that in a totally different way to how it turned out. But nonetheless, it was that prophetic word that really almost catapulted me to really seek the Lord in a more sincere way, in a more deeper way, in a more consecrated way.
SID: So you know what? It says in the Bible that if you draw close to God, He’s going to draw close to you. That’s what happened to Carlos. Because on May 8, 2005, he’s minding his own business, sleeping. What happened?
CARLOS: And all of a sudden in the middle of the night, my spirit begins to rise up out of my body. And at first, I was just like hovering, hanging over the bed. I could see my physical body laying there. I could see my wife laying next to me. I thought to myself, what in the world is going on. I thought I passed away. That thought went through my mind.
SID: I can understand.
CARLOS: And then all of a sudden, I feel these two massive arms and I knew it was an angel. And I could see myself. He was cradling me, holding me between his two arms. And the moment I saw that, we began to rise. And I remember looking at the roof and I ducked my head because I thought I was going to hit my head against the roof, and to my surprise, we go right through the roof of the house. And so that’s when I thought, oh, Lord, I passed away. And I began to pray for my wife, my kids. So for a brief moment, my mind and my thoughts, my emotions were on earthly matters. And then all of a sudden from one instant to another instant, a moment, my emotions were flooded with this incredible joy, joy I had never felt before because I knew that I was about to go see Jesus, the Son of God. And so I remember just closing my eyes and thinking to myself, I’m ready. And then we shoot through the atmosphere going through the clouds. And then in an instant I find myself in this big open expanse of a place of, for lack of a better word, a large opening, a room. I didn’t see any buildings. I didn’t see any angels. I didn’t see anybody. I just saw, in the natural I’m color blind, so I saw these incredible colors, massive, beautiful colors.
And the neat thing about that, Sid, was the colors were actually breathing. There was life, like if it was lungs. It was expanding and inhaling. I could see the colors actually breathe and full of life.
SID: You know, I had heard reports like this before. Everything is alive in Heaven. I have heard that the grass is even alive. It’s like we haven’t even experienced life on this dead earth until we have the life of God inside of us. But how would you like to be in a place where everything is alive, no death. I like it.
CARLOS: Yes. And so from that room, all of a sudden in an instant I was back into this other room. And in this room, I saw two figures and they were standing at an angle like this, maybe from here to the camera, maybe 10 feet. And then I heard a voice and the voice said: “To you, it’s been granted to stand here and listen.” Because I immediately recognized it was the Father and the Son. At first, I didn’t know who it was, but when I, as I got a little closer, than I heard the voice. I recognized it was Jesus and the Father, and they were having a conversation. And so when I heard the voice it told me, “You’ve been granted permission to stand here and listen,” I remember turning my ear this way to listen to their conversation, and to my surprise, they were talking about the End Times.
SID: Hold that thought. When we come back, I don’t have to tell you to be sure to come back, you will be back. I know that. Don’t go away.
Sid: The ancient Jewish anointing and the Christian anointing have merged together to form the full body of Messiah. That’s what Jesus was talking about in John 17:21 He said “I pray that these 2 people groups would be one.” There were only 2 people groups not Catholics and Baptist they didn’t exist. Jews and Gentiles, and what will happen when these 2 anointing’s merge together the world will believe. My guest Dr. Lance Wallnau, we’re talking about his 4 CD teaching series must, it is a must teaching. It’s title is “In a Heartbeat.” Explain how you got that title Lance.
Lance: On 911 I happened to be in a management seminar Sid in Hawaii where the subject was “Emotional Mastery,” can you imagine that as an irony. We had people from all over the world that were venting their feelings. Palestinian’s who were actually applauding the terrorists, and Israeli’s who were there on the stage talking about how frustrated they were that this is the world they have to live in in the Middle East. It was an incredibly intense experience. As I prayed through the day and observed and was working with various people the Lord started speaking to me that “The state that we must be in in order to be able to access the kingdom of God is a state of resourcefulness, a state of creativity, a state of access and openness to the voice of God and the anointing of God.” At that moment I realized that the believer to be the peacemaker, to be the solution to the problem, to be the person that can shift the spiritual climate. Has first got to be able to shift their own state, they have to be able to go from fear or anxiety, or defeat in a fraction of a moment they have to move intentionally into the realm of the supernatural. To many of us put this off to something God does as opposed to training our self to operate in the realm that were designed to once we become a new Christian, or a new believer. So while I was working this through I realized that there are 3 elements that determine your state:
Sid: You know I don’t want to digress too much but you said that one of the popular teachings of the day has been what’s known as “Word of Faith Teaching” and they didn’t allow for the emotions. Would you just comment a little bit there?
Lance: Absolutely. The kingdom of God said “It’s two-thirds century.” It’s righteousness which comes by faith, and then peace and joy. You tell me somebody who comes in… I consider myself a word of faith. I come into your house and you see me with a long face and I look depressed and it looks like I need Prozac, then I’m coming to you talking to you about overcoming life. Immediately you can the kingdom isn’t resonating in my life because joy and peace are sensory dimensions. You feel those states, they are states not just emotions. So the kingdom of God is two-thirds an overcoming state or mode of existence.
Sid: Many people feel “No you just hang on to the word and everything will take care of itself.”
Lance: There you have the problem because if all you’re doing is hanging onto the word you have one part of you in agreement which is cognizant, you’re cognate in part. Your emotive part which is where your passion your feelings are they also have got to line up or you become a house divided. We’ve all been around believers who say that they’ve forgiven and their past is past, and when you’re around them you know there’s still a bitterness and unresolved aspect and you pick up on it because their feelings have not yet really released the issue. You’re absolutely right, so this teaching is recognizing the fact that states is… you know the Jewish concept it’s very Greek when you talk body, soul, and spirit you’re talking Paul writing to the Thessalonians to the Greek culture. Jesus when He talked He talked with a Jewish context. He said “Though shall love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart the soul and the mind, and thy strength.” He wasn’t as nice and tidy as spirit, soul, body He had mind and heart. What did He do? He has a mind and a heart. How did He dichotomize that? Well the reality is to the Jewish mind they all overlap you can’t cut Sid Roth in half without cutting all of him. You can’t just separate your spirit, soul, and body so nice and neatly. So I think what I’m teaching is state is the overlap of the mind, heart, soul, spirit and body. It’s the combined mailing address of where your dominant state is right now which determines to a great degree whether or not you’re able to access everything God has for you. In a heartbeat means in a moment you can shift your focus, shift your attention, shift what you’re saying and actually by doing so you move from a disempowered condition to one that’s open and receptive to the anointing.
Sid: As you pointed out it’s almost a built in warning system to let you know you’re not in the anointing when you pay attention to your feelings.
Lance: Oh you absolutely got it Sid! Listen this I teach kids… I had an interesting experience last night. I’m on the road a lot, I come home to my local church because I’ve got a family. My wife has a degree in film so she was out doing a video project. My daughter is 10 years old and her… so my wife was going to teach the class for the children last night and she was late. The Lord told me “Take your daughter’s class.” I like that because I like the fact that I could be talking to businessmen, or personalities one day, then I’m with the 9 year olds the next day, keeps it real. So Sid I’m with the 9 year olds and the Lord said “I want you to teach them how to access the sound of my voice in a heartbeat.” I said “9 year olds, this’ll be interesting.” The Lord said “Get paper” I handed out paper and water colors. I had them all pair up in teams of 2 and join hands with their girlfriends or their friends. I said “Now here we’re gonna learn how God doesn’t have a little Holy Spirit or a big Holy Spirit. He only has one Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in you is big enough to talk to you if you can get comfortable He’s going to help you minister to your friends today.” So I had them hold each other’s hands and ask the Lord to give them a picture, or an idea, or an image, or an impression that they would be able to draw that would be a prophetic, a love letter from God to the other person. Right away they were uptight they were tense they were a little nervous they had never done this before. So I had them all make fist with their left hand and I said “Take your right index finger and try to pry it into your fist. None of them could do it. I said “Alright now I want you to relax your fist so it’s really loose, now stick your index finger in between your fingers in your left hand, and they all could stick their fingers through.” I said “You know when were really uptight God wants to speak to us but He can’t, but when we learn to walk in peace and rest in Him, even in a place where were stressful or upset God will talk to us. So let’s do it again.” I had them all worship a little bit and let me pray for them. Now they relaxed and asked God for picture. Sid it was phenomenal I had about 20 kids all getting scriptures, or prophetic pictures that drew in row to their friends and gave them to them last night. Proving to me that your state in a heartbeat is not something which is just a territory of an adult, or a consultant, or a businessman it’s every one of us can learn how to adjust our self to hear God. Your program is being broadcast right now on an invisible wavelength. If someone has a receiver they can hear what Sid Roth wants to say, and we’re all designed the same way. Our state determines our reception.
Sid: Hmm. Well, let me ask you this how do you get your emotions to line up, if you will, with your spirit and the word?
Lance: Well that’s a very powerful, very powerful point it’s going to be difficult to do it quickly but I’ll give you an example right now. I’m flying in Chicago in the airport we have a blizzard. I have a conference in New England I’ve got to speak at, I’ve got people coming in and I cancel flights in Chicago. I hate O’Hare Airport at times because of this. So I’m standing there with my wife and 3 children, and my state is obviously one of frustration, agitation, irritation, I’m not in a peak state right now, right now I’m in a frustrated state. I’m thinking of my own teaching, I’m thinking “You know Lance you teach this what would you say to yourself if you were coaching yourself?” I said “First thing I’d do is shift my focus. What am I focused on? I’m focused on not getting out of the airport, so I’m not going to focus on that I’m gonna focus on God’s creativity.” What am I saying to myself? I’m saying “Look how long that line is I’m never gonna get out of here I’m going to be humiliated. People are showing up for a conference and I’m not even there. What am I going to say? My self-talk is going to change and here’s what I’m going to say ‘I serve a creative God, therefore God gives me the ability to be creative.’” At that moment a thought came to me my state started shifting I started realizing “I’m going to start to focus on God’s creative ability right now to give me a solution.” So I see a woman with a clipboard walking around from United and see that she has some authority, and I don’t know exactly what she is doing but my spirit tells me there’s the key. So with hundreds of people… now I don’t even know if I should confess this on the radio. I’m just going to tell you what I did, I started kvetch’ing, I started complaining. I said “Oh I don’t know what I’m gonna do with this blizzard I have a baby right here.” She’s like 5 years old, I said “What are we going to do for milk, what are we going to do for diapers…” and my wife hits me in the ribs and she says “What’s the matter with you you never talk like this.” I said “Stop it! I’m being creative. I don’t know what I’m gonna do I’ve got the kids, I’ve got the…” the woman comes up to me and says “Sir is this your family?” I said “Yes.” She said “Is that your little girl” and I said “Yes. I don’t know what I’m gonna do I’m stuck here overnight.” She said “You follow me.” Sid she put me on a special flight for handicapped people, she must of thought I was mental or something.
Lance: A flight for handicapped people. We flew out in 45 minutes and I arrived for the conference. I’m telling you this is what I learned state is everything. God at any moment can bubble up a word of knowledge, a word of wisdom, a way to handle the situation if we can take responsibility for keeping our feelings in alignment with a new focus because let’s face it your feelings follow your focus. If your focus shifts your feelings have to shift. So you shift your focus and your feelings begin to move with it.
Sid: Now I’m going to ask you a personal question. Do you ever look angry, do you ever look I mean physically look grumpy? Do you ever physically look worried?
Lance: [Laughing] You know this is funny. My answer is quite honestly, I used to drive to church and my son who is 7 years old looked at me and said “Dad how come you’re angry.” I looked at him and I said “Son I’m not angry” I said “You know there are serious problems in the world and I’m merely thinking about them.” I’m giving him an answer and he looks at and he says “Dad that went right over my head.” [Laughing]
Lance: I realized I trying to justify and explain my problem. I looked at the mirror and I thought “My 7 year old can see that I’m not a happy preacher. This is not a good testimony for a preacher’s kid.” So from that moment I began to study the relationship between my expression and my state. I believe personally my feeling is this your state is the combination of your focus, what you say to yourself and how you command your physiology. My body on purpose is conditioned to be resourceful.
Sid: So that’s why when it says in the New Testament your spirit, soul and body it lumps all 3 together.
Lance: All 3 together.
Sid: Oh we’re out of time.